The Debate: how should UMNO treat MCA?-2

I say leave MCA to tackle their problems. Only Leow Tiong Lai seeks big brother's protection. What special talents does UMNO have to help out MCA? Their members are as bright as UMNO members and maybe, even as pride prevents us from admitting it, they have more talents in their overall leadership. At least in academic achievements. Shamsul Anuar may want to go though the qualifications of UMNO law makers and compare them with MCA law makers across the whole spectrum, to establish this statement.

Rather than expend time and energy on other peoples' problems, let us spend resources on re-discovering UMNO or rather the essence which we have lost.

Has it got any experience in dealing with the MCA problem is a new way? It can't possibly do a repeat as to what Tun Ghafar Baba did ages ago. Each generation has its own uniqueness that demands unique approaches.

So, what in essence does UMNO have? It has, as Shamsul Anuar consciously said it- its ' bigness'. That is what it has and that is what entitles UMNO to throw its weight around. It is a 'given'- the 'reality' which Shamsul Anuar wants us to look at. To me, that unmistakably points to having the Brahmin Bumi mentality. That you can and will do as you like because of who you are( the acsriptive element), you confer upon yourself the ultimate authority as final arbiter( the particularistic element) to determine which faction can lead MCA and you treat the private space of others as your own( the diffusiveness of roles). You not only own MCA, you own the space within which they operate. You don't own Ong Tee Keat, but also his home, spouse and children.

These, are the signals I get from an operative like Shamsul Anuar. Examine how he debates with the others:-

shamshul anuar said...

Dear Wenger Khairy,

This is my observation;
1) Malay support for PAS and PKR is steadily eroding. PAS is perceived as "submitting " to DAP which is to Malays is the most racist party in Malaysia. Besides, PAS used to ridicule UMNO for its alliance with non Malay political parties. So, PAS is at lost to justify its alliance with DAP.

2) Anwar is a traitor from viewpoinnt of many Malays. He lost respect when he refuses to swear. Swearing before Kuran is seem as ultimate act of telling the truth. And Anwar refuses. Besides, he is seen as being vengeful and playing dirty just like when he was with UMNO.

3) Malays start to warm up to UMNO as they are dissapointed with PAS becoming "slave" to DAP.

19 December 2009 23:22

dua sen said...

Shamsul,

You're going a bit off tangent on DS's essay.

If memory serves me right, during UMNO crisis in 1987, did MCA ie Tun Ling take advantage of the situation when he held the fort in Parliament when UMNO deregistered ? The issue is not which party contributes more. Otherwise, don't call it BN. If UMNO thinks that it can go alone, then cubalah...

20 December 2009 00:07

Wenger J Khairy said...

Shamsul,
Look at Selangor. If UMNO fails to win 65-70% of the Malay vote it will lose the state once again. These are facts, read here. The difference is I actually do my background research before I open my mouth. I back what I say with facts and figures. That is my style. Parpu and similar people just bark without having ZERO STRATEGY and when they LOSE, CRY LIKE A BUNCH OF BABIES.

These are facts Doc. I was there!

20 December 2009 04:01

Peter said...

Shamsul,

The more you post the more it looks rediculous. There are a lot of crabs in your posts.


You wrote..
"Perhaps you should reread carefully what I wrote. Nowhere in my writing that I used the word "Ketuanan Melayu"." One does not have to post the word "ketuanan Melayu" to be seen as one. Just read your post! It is full of "I am majority kind , and you listen to me" kind.

You wrote...
"What i stress is a fact. Was it not MCA leaders who made "courtesy calls" to UMNO leaders due to the latter's position as leaders of the govt of the day.
It was MCa leaders who asked help from UMNO to solve the problem. So, do not blame UMNO for this."
How shallow your statement and using this as argument. In any alliance, "courtesy calls" are normal like paying respect to the elders of the family. Yes, the very trouble of BN is this kind of structure. You have the elders who commands over the others and as you said they have to pay "courtesy calls" to their abang. What you call this? You see this happening in Pakatan?


"UMNO is dominant in BN. And it earns the dominance through winning in ballot box. Let us face it. It won 79 out of 139 seats held by BN.
Yu may loath to accept but that is the fact. It has the most influence due to its winning the most number of seats. That cant be construed as being arrogant."
If you lord over others just because you have the most seats and expect everyone to listen to you is not "arrogant" what is? Your very posting shows it! Hey go and look up in a dictionary what is the word "arrogant" means

"As for Peter, do not get upset. Do reread my comment. Nowheew in my writing that I deny the votes of non Malays. Rather, I only tell the truth. In the last election, MCA, MIC and Gerakan were saved from total disaster due to their alliance with UMNO.Check the results. Majority of seats won by these parties are Malay majority areas such as Tapah, Grik, Pandan, Simpang Renggam. "

Sure those Chickens did win in Malay majority seats ... because UMNO must ensure they survive ! Come on if you are a Chinese and look at how compliant MCA had been all these years , and how the rights of their community are being abused day in and out, would you really vote for them? The fact is that, without the Chinese votes in many areas , UMNO would have lost to PAS too. Not all Chinese or Indians believe in PAS in March 2008 I mind you and they voted as many years before for BN.

Perhaps you should do an analysis in those seat in Malay Majority seats. take away all the NON Malay votes times 2(because when a vote switches you need 2 to compensate) and compare the majoriy won , how many UMNO seats you have left among all the parliament seats?

"I never say it is OK to be arrogant. Rather, I do not agree with Salmongkol's blaming UMNO for trying to help MCA out of this messy problem. What is wrong in agreeing to help?

Merely trying to help cant be construed as bullying other into submission. I however, understand the tagline "One vote for MCa is one vote for UMNO" was used very succesfully by DAP to instill hatred towards UMNO."

Is this true in the first place? If so what gives? Where have you been all these years? Outside the country and not realising what has been said and not said prior to mar 2008?

20 December 2009 10:28

Peter said...

Shamsul ...

You said...

"It is however a double sword. If you care to analyse( if only), you will find that Malays also start behaving like Chinese community. Many of them, upset at being accused as racist or worse still "conducting etnic cleansing), vowed to vote only for Malay candidates even they are from PKR or PAS.
That is why BN candidates for Teluk Kemang, Bandar Tun Razak, Pasir Panjang, Kuantan, Lunas lost among other."
You lost because of the lost of trust, corruption, and the Internet when their children went home to pass the message. Today is not 50 years ago when MSM rules.


"But I also give credit when it is due. For decades, UMNO was ridiculed for agreeing to let MCA and MIC won in Malay majority areas. Is that not an act of generosity?"
UMNO should not have. It would have left UMNO with far far few seats than it is holding today . NOt more. Why? Without non Malay votes UMNO would have lost in many many other seats as well.

"Remember, PAS used to belittle UMNO as being "sinful" for asking Malays to vote for MIC or MCA?
And who is the hypocrite. Do remember that way back on JUne 1998, Karpal Singh during DAP convention in WP said Anwar is a homosex and challenged Dr Mahathir to sack him."

As for PAS and DAP , both as far as we know today kowtows to no one. Both are still very deep rooted in their believes. They just agreed to disagree and have a longer term strategy of a common good. Get rid of BN and form a new govt and this is bad for you.

As for your claim that PAS ever give way to DAP is totally false. When has PAS ever given way to DAP or DAP given way to PAS ???? None whatsoevery.

Just tell us what has PAS given way to DAP other than DAP's fight for rights denied under the constitution to the other races in Malaysia? The only problem they have given away is they do not believe in "Ketuanan Melayu". They believe in Ketuanan Rakyat. ..that means "ketuanan You and Ketuanan ME". Is that wrong?

Still say you are not brainwashed by BTN?

20 December 2009 10:28

Suci Dalam Debu said...

Shamshul,

A good big brother is one who guides and protects his little brothers.

If UMNO is considered a big brother, then it is a wicked big brother.

You conveniently forgot that it UMNO lost it all in 1999 and his saviour were none other than the little brothers.

It is pretty obvious that you are similar to the white south africans during the apartheid years.

Insaflah sebelum kamu diinsafkan.

20 December 2009 18:40

shamshul anuar said...

Dear Dua sen,

I believe you misinterpret my response. I never say that UMNO claims it can go all alone.

Rather, I do not agree to the allegation that UMNO is accused of bullying other parties simply because it is the dominant party in BN.

That is why I beg to differ with what Mr Sakmongkol said. I do not agree with the preposterous allegation that MCA lost faces on allegation( allegation , not the truth) when UMNO interves.

UMNO intervenes due to request by MCA top leadership. If youy care to reread the newspapers, you will find that MCA leaders had been urging Najib( on his capacity as BN Chairman and PM) to help.

My point is that Sakmongkol is being unfair in blaming UMNO for the mess MCA is facing now. In another word, do not blame others for unfavorable predicament you are facing. That is my point.

It is an rony that those who hate UMNO so much here also recognise UMNO's eminent position in BN and also in Malaysian politics. If not, they would not chided BN as UBN Govt. Meaning they still recognise UMNO's dominant position.

Just like DAP being dominant in PR, UMNO is dominant in BN. So, there is nothing to be embarassed about.

Just like Chines is dominant in economy by earning it through sheer hard work and close alliance with the ruling party, UMNO earns the dominance by winning through ballot box.

As for Suci dalam Debu, well I hope you do not forget your mannerism( in case you have one). If you can associate UMNO with apartheid, then please explain why there are vernacular schools in malaysia, an unheard phenomenon in many countries.

If UMNO practises apartheid, you will find bunting declaring " Chinese or Dog" not allowed into Tasik Perdana.

Upset? So, please be careful with your words. For decades , UMNO stands by its allies in BN. It maintains that it is not "haram" to vote non Malay candidates when PAS never fails to poison Malay community that it is sinful to vote for non Muslim candidates.

In Pasir Panjang, Dr Vasan lost to Nizar partly because PAS members sent leaflets in surau and mosques telling Malay community that "haram" to vote for MIC candidate.

So, which part of UMNO's action that you deemed "wicked?". Is it the part when UMNO responds to MCA's request for intervention?



As for Peter, so please ask MCA why on earth the leaders are willing to pay "courtesy call". Why? Please also tell me which party in BN has the most influence say in Perak. UMNO with 28 seat and MCA with 1 seat.

Or in Penang where UMNO has 11 with Gerakan and MCA and MIC none ? Or in Selangor where UMNO has 18 seats and other BN components have 2 seats?

THe recognition comes naturally , not because they are forced to. As for MCA, if they want to be independent of BN, well MCA then cant expect UMNO members to vote for them again. So, Ong Tee Keat may most probably lose in Pandan.

Since when UMNO "lords" over others? Being dominant does not mean that you lord over others.

As for PAS, why on earth the support from Malay community is eroding. Because , many Malays feel that it "kowtows" to DAP. It is now willingly said that the goal is no longer Islamic state.

UMNO leaders in Perak were dumbfdounded when Nizar himself said that PAS never has Islam in its Constitution.

Just to be on good book of DAP, PAS is so willing to drop "Islamic state" concept. and no Malay can forget how Nizar was chided as puppet during his tenure as Perak MB. Why PAS influence among Malay community decrease as shown in Bukit Gantang. No doubt he won but why Malay support decreases for PAS?

You are dreaming if you can not detect how upset Malays are with PAS when they are so willing to abandon principle just to be in good book of DAP.

As for MCA, the problem( beside leadership issue) from Malay perspective is that it dares not stand to DAP's lies that any alliance with UMNO is a symbol of weakness.

21 December 2009 01:18