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Sakmongkol ak 47

ariff.sabri@gmail.com

Sunday, 25 January 2009

Race Politics and Custodial Deaths

POLICE DAHAGAKAN DARAH KAUM INDIA!.

These were the words that screamed on a banner hung on the van carrying the coffin of A. Kugan. A photograph of the deceased with all the gory details was also shown, being part of the banner. It doesn’t take an Einstein to understand what’s being brandished around. Clearly the banner was designed to incite. It is also politically motivated to advertise the perceived tyranny of the police force. Also, by extension, the tyranny of the UMNO led government. It is fashionable and indeed de rigueur to assign blame automatically to the government for all ills in this country.

The ominous message behind the public show of the death is obvious. Because the government is Malay led, it must be by definition evil. This is the message the people behind HINDRAF would want to instil. Thus the Sivaji of HINDRAF asked, knowing of the intended answer beforehand, is this because the victim is a defenceless INDIAN?

I have written earlier no one can judge how the surviving members of his family or sections of the Indian community chose to ventilate their anger and anguish. They want to wail, they want to turn his death into a public spectacle to achieve whatever desired effects, that it is their choice. The organisers of the funeral procession wanted to publicise the death of A. Kugan. Once publicised in such an inflammatory manner, they can never contain the ramifications. Among them, the organisers can never fault the public into thinking they are being led to regard the death of the unfortunate Kugan, as one actuated by racial prejudice. That is the primary objective anyway. We can see the coming headlines. HINDRAF says- the death of Kugan is another example of the genocide perpetrated by the evil Malays on the Indian community.

The fact of the matter is his death is another in the list of custodial deaths. This term refers to deaths that occurred while the accused or suspects were in police custody.

Suppose now, the police declassify their information regarding custodial deaths and have the data published. Suppose now, out of that number, the majority who perished were Malays/Indonesians/Muslims and not Indians. How will our reaction be? Will it be met with the cynical response, oh, that’s all right, because the dead are Malays?

All I then need to do is to pose an incendiary question- why are Malays dropping dead left and right? What can possibly happen after that? The Malays would explode. The aggrieved Malay community vents out their anguish and anger with violent outpouring of emotions, amuks and various forms of public disorder, disturbances and so forth. The actions can destabilise the entire nation. All because, I ask a question, mistaken as heroic, why are Malays dropping dead, left and right. The same as Polis dahagakan darah kaum India.

Will it be all right, if the dead were Malays and it would further be all right, if Malays kill Malay policemen? That would be the natural turn of argument, wouldn’t it?

It is most important, that other cooler heads prevail over inflamed emotions. A murder does not become less important if the victim is an ethnic Indian or conversely, it becomes a national concern and therefore more important, if the victim was a Malay.

I hope our disquiet; more so the Indian community’s anguish is also directed at HINDRAF’s blatant lie, that the death of Mr Kugan is part of the genocidal plan of the maniacal UMNO led government to exterminate all Indians in Malaysia. Or that the Malaysian government is embarking on its holocaust.

I think this sordid affair about the death of Mr A Kugan should not, by design degenerate into a racial issue. I am surprised members of the opposition, especially the PKR people are silent on this. The UMNO led government must take decisive and firm action against these people who are intent to make this death into a racially motivated killing. We are being led into thinking, Malays are killing Malaysian Indians. The best way to restore our confidence is to bring the perpetrators to justice expeditiously.

If the police declassify their data and releases them to reveal that, it is indeed true that the majority of custodial deaths are Indians, what should be our appropriate response? Can we in truth, infer, that such deaths are racially motivated? In my opinion, that kind of inference is very irresponsible. That kind of thinking accepts as true, the racially motivated view that somehow Malays condone the killing of Indians. Such acceptance is premised on our own race centric bigotry.

Whereas in fact, there are probably logical reasons as to why, the majority of custodial deaths turned out to be Indians. In the 1970’s I think, it was either Lim Kit Siang or Tan Chee Koon at that time who questioned the IGP then, Tun Hanif Omar- as to why most of the communist suspects arrested and incarcerated were Chinese. Tun Hanif gave a very succinct answer. If 90% of the communists come from a specific ethnic group, then it is logical to expect, the majority of suspects caught would come from that group. Now, if 90% of criminal suspects come from the Indian community, the same logical outcome is to be expected. Correspondingly, if custodial deaths do occur, the probability that they would occur among Indian suspects is higher than of other races. That’s because they formed the largest number of suspected criminals. There is nothing racial about them.

That answers why the Indians formed the larger number of custodial deaths. As to why they are dead, there MUST be rogue elements in the force that are bumping them off. Go after them because they are murderers of a person, not because they are murderers of Indian persons.

I am therefore very assured when I read a post by a member of the dandelions who wrote this. The prisoners who were tortured and died in internment of government jails do not consist solely of Indians, but also Malays, Chinese and of other ethnicities that make up the same home that is Malaysia. To claim exclusivity and condemn purely on the race card is most unwise, not to mention provoking racial sentiments which is not in favour of the poor boy’s family’s cause, as well as everyone who has suffered excessive police force before.

I hope the force of reason and sobriety contained in his passages are well taken.

28 comments:

Zawi 25 January 2009 at 11:27  

Dato' Sak,
Agree fully with you. Somebody is playing the racial card. They are just as guilty. It is such persons that should be put under ISA and if ISA is used as such, it can be considered as relevant.

Anonymous,  25 January 2009 at 11:34  

this is just speculation on your part. The death of indians in custody is very high. BUt no one should die in custody.

You have made the leap that "POLICE DAHAGAKAN DARAH KAUM INDIA!" is about the Malays and UMNO committing some genoicide?

It shows your thought processes more than anything else. What made you make such a leap?

From "POLICE DAHAGAKAN DARAH KAUM INDIA!" to UMNO and then Malays?

Why did you do that?

The polis is the polis and among the officers involved were officers of all races. This is about the institution of police, but you have turned this in this particular posting to about UMNO?

A lot of HIndraf supporters support Pakatan, so your point on "the death of Kugan is another example of the genocide perpetrated by the evil Malays on the Indian community"


is simply wrong

Inanam,  25 January 2009 at 11:50  

Hi,

I must point out that your reasoning that, in a likelihood of Indian deaths being the most during custody is a result of criminal suspects being 90% Indians, would beg a more compelling question, why are Indians, who comprise 10% of the population, could make up 90% of criminal suspects? If it's not mere police prejudice or racial profiling, then could it be poverty? Social discrimination? Or is it just cultural?

If this is the case, then it would be no different then the case with black Americans especially during the pre-civil rights days in the USA.

Whatever the case, we have no clue on the current circumstances. You seem to already have preemptively ruled out anything racial about this tragedy, although I personally wouldn't go so far, as I wouldn't suggest that there is indeed any element of racism in the police conduct either.

I hope that this is just simply a case of rogue police officers. But the possibility of racism within the police force shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

On another hand, I think Hindraf should be ashamed of themselves for exploiting the situation if they were indeed behind the banner thing.

sakmongkol AK47 25 January 2009 at 12:04  

anon an 11:34
sorry, you have not understood this article.
inanam,
i knew that would be coming...why Indians resort to crime- poverty etc. that is not the subject of this article.
pak zawi,
unlike the anon @11:34, you understood what i meant. i thought this article was written in as clear prose as possible.

Inanam,  25 January 2009 at 12:52  

I was just going with your speculation. It wasn't just about the crime-poverty connection either. I'm personally against racial profiling by the police, if there is such practice. My point was that I don't agree with u on prematurely ruling out racism in part of the police, as the police haven't disclosed any data on custodial deaths yet, which is why also I said the banner thing was wrong. It maybe a sensitive issue but has to be investigated nonetheless, not only to correct IF anything isn't right or in the other hand to dispel the fear of persecution of for example the Indian community.

By the way, I didn't get the line "Why Indians resort to crime-poverty".

Jed Yoong 25 January 2009 at 12:57  

"why are Malays dropping dead left and right?"

i asked the same but of indians.
i am surprised you interpreted it that way.
it's a fact that lots of prominent indians are dropping dead, and that was the intention of my question on my post, that is are these indian deaths connected to political upheavals within the community....
i do think we need cooler heads and sharper minds to understand wider issues instead of just going on the defensive when no such accusation was made.
cheers.

ajipp 25 January 2009 at 13:23  

why the malay didnt complaint when their son died in prison?

because the malays are stupid, they think when they oppose the police /gov = oppose UMNO....they think umno adalah penyelamat ketuanan melayu.....so cannot lawan gov.....

ada ramai orang melayu yang tak suka polis dikudakan oleh UMNO....terutama ketika pilihanraya / aktiviti yang dilakukan oleh PR..... kalau polis boleh professional....maka tiada sesiapa yang nak salahkan umno kalau berlaku kesilapan yang dilakukan oleh pihak polis.....

sekarang...perception adalah polis = kuda tunggangan UMNO......

Nasirudin Anjud 25 January 2009 at 13:46  

Dear Dato' SakMongkol,

Let me start by calling a spade a spade. It is black but it is the freaking truth.
Police killed that defenseless guy in their custody no matter what excuse or spin coming out of the police station.
No insinuation of Malay killing Indian or whatever racial motivation to that tune. Intentionally or otherwise the fact remains that POLICE KILLED KUGAN IN THEIR CUSTODY.
Somewhere out there guilty murderer/s are waiting to be caught. I hope when the time come, I'd like to see the guilty murderer/s get their deserved punishment.
TQ.
p.s. and why can't everybody keep quiet and let a group of independent to carry out investigation soonest and not try to sweep things under the carpet.

Eyes Wide Open 25 January 2009 at 16:59  

The issue in the Kugan case is very simply - a person died suspiciously while in police custody, the circumstances of which the police ostensibly tried to cover up.

The issue that needs to be resolved is - what really happened, and what needs to be seriously done about the integrity and professionalism of the police force.

Unfortunately, the late Mr Kugan's death has been used to interpret various other issues that may or may not have any relevance in the case.

During this time of Kugan's family's extreme shock and grief, it is absolutely disgusting that people would use their frustrations as free publicity to forward their own agendas (BN component parties included).

Racism? Selective persecution? Unless there is hard data and honest confessions from people in the know, this will never be proven and is open to speculation.

Systematic genocide? Goodness gracious! Aren't there non-Malays in the police and armed forces?

However, Dato' there were some statements in your article that could be interpreted as alluding to "ketuanan Melayu" in the sense of "no one must question the actions of the Malays, least of all non-Malays".

But I would interpret it as your attempt to highlight the real issues involved, but approaching it from the viewpoint of someone whose overwhelming passion is to protect his race against slanderous accusations and belief that UMNO best represents his cause.

But as to why people make the connection of "police-UMNO", ajipp hit the nail on the head. The general perception is that the police are the enforcement arm of UMNO because there have been too many anecdotes in this direction for this point to be refuted. Only the most optimistic would not notice the coincidences.

Anonymous,  25 January 2009 at 19:07  

Stop all this shitting please!!!
O now its Mr Kugan?? If there was police brutality inflicted on him, hes now made to look like a hero??
Did the late Kugan and his criminal buddies ever thought og the financial brutality he inflicted to others when he stole their cars?? You think insurance can cover everything??
Sudah mati baru you can see Kugan's family and relatives and friends coming out!!
Why didn't they prevent him from becoming a criminal in the first place if they love and care for him so much???

Or being car thieves in the Klang valley a very noble occupation??????

Kugan's family should shoulder the guilt and blame too!!

sakmongkol AK47 25 January 2009 at 19:26  

eyes wide open.
ewo has summed up my position aptly:-
he said;
But I would interpret it as your attempt to highlight the real issues involved, but approaching it from the viewpoint of someone whose overwhelming passion is to protect his race against slanderous accusations and belief that UMNO best represents his cause.
we dont wait for accusations, then only we want to defend. the drift of the reasoning and outpouring of ideas point towards precisely that- that somehow the death of one alleged car thief is actuated by racism( Malay that is). ah...you say no accusations have been made- please read the many comments posted in my brew cafe's post. there you can see even attempts to liken this custodial death to the Israeli brutalities visited upon the palestinians. the direct and indirect inference to Malays were unmistakably clear.
to the one who complains about using the prefix Mr.; thats a personal choice. you can call him whatever you want. i will call him however i like.
to the person who says that HINDRAF is more prominent in calling out the offense, by the same token, will it be all right, if some ultra nationalist Malay group, airs the Malay grievances violently- yes? then what? it will be a clash between might is right groups?
arent we commited to advance our beliefs and causes through a contest and clash of ideas and thoughts.

DR.SARAVANAN R 25 January 2009 at 20:13  

Hi Sak,
as we agree to disagree, i would like to express my disappointment on your write up.

Statistics show Indians to represent the largest portion of the community involved in criminal activities. Thus, they, by race, represent the largest portion of the community occupying the cells in police stations around Malaysia. Being the largest group of people occupying the lock-ups, naturally by the law of probability, the incidences of Indians getting abused in these cells would be relatively higher as compared to the other races.

The Indian community is concerned over this high ratio. They want answers. Unfortunately, to date, there has been nothing done to look into these incidences by the powers that be. The people that walk the corridors of power have been very lackadaisical over this issue. The police force and the IGP have not been very helpfull either. The people are upset. Custodial deaths are becoming more rampant by the day. So, I fail to see any fault in demanding for answers and for justice.

"Police dahagakan darah kaum India!" means "police are thirsty for Indian blood."
This refers to the high number of Indians who have died mysteriously during police custody. Construing it pre emptively in any other way until proven otherwise should be deemed unnecessary.

When one is in trouble or in difficulty and reaches out for help, it is the one who lends a helping hand, that is considered a friend. Notwithstanding all the begging and all the hue and cry, BN has never come forward to lend a helping hand to family members of these victims of custodial deaths, be it a Malay, Chinese or an Indian. To date there has been no concerted effort taken by those who walk the corridors of power to help rectify these custodial deaths. The question that begs for an answer is WHY?

On the other hand, we have representatives from Hindraf, Makkal Sakthi and politicians from PR coming through to lend support (whatever their motives may be) to these victims. In such a scenario, who becomes the friend of the people? This is BN's shortfall.

Your article also contains much speculation on your behalf. Why would you do that?

You said ...It is also politically motivated to advertise the perceived tyranny of the police force. Also, by extension, the tyranny of the UMNO led government...

Here you assume a political link between the death, the police force and UMNO. Why?

You said ...The organisers of the funeral procession wanted to publicise the death of A. Kugan. Once publicised in such an inflammatory manner, they can never contain the ramifications. Among them, the organisers can never fault the public into thinking they are being led to regard the death of the unfortunate Kugan, as one actuated by racial prejudice..."

Can you prove otherwise? If yes, then kindly provide evidence to the police to help solve this mystery as soon as possile. If not, then it might just look like your statement is being racially suggestive.

You said "...I think this sordid affair about the death of Mr A Kugan should not, by design degenerate into a racial issue..."

Again, people are frustrated with the police. Linking this problem to the Malays and making it appear racial are your speculation.

Thanks

You have a good holiday. Regards to Mamasita.

Omong 25 January 2009 at 20:25  

I wonder who voted for Malaysia's first Idol, Jacklyn Victor?

Anonymous,  25 January 2009 at 21:55  

I agree with you. But the problem is that credibility of the govt is so low, that no one will believe whatever statement is made by any official.

Secondly, The Home Minister is making threatening noise an this is escalating the tension.

There is a complete breakdown of trust between the govt and the people. And this is made worse by complete lack of leadership in the government. Who is in charge.

Because of these problems, I dont see a solution in sight.

Eyes Wide Open 26 January 2009 at 00:23  

It really comes down to how you want to interpret this whole affair. One can interpret it as:

1) Yet another case of Indians dying under systematic Malay persecution, or

2) Another Indian died under the hands of the Malays, because the Malays as a whole have less regard for the Indian race's lives, or

3) An Indian died under the hands of certain Malay person/s, or

4) An Indian died under the hands of the Police, or

5) A criminal died under the hands of the Police, so good riddance! or

5) A person died under the hands of the Police, or

6) A person died under the hands another person/s

Each interpretation has its own response/reaction. The thing is, everyone interprets the tragedy according to preconcieved beliefs, as we can see from the variety of responses here.

The conduct of the Police in this matter is indeed questionable. And THAT is the main issue - the conduct of the Police and NOT the conduct of the Malay race.

Yes, we should bring the Police Officers responsible to book. Yes, we should investigate why so many deaths (and other shenanigans) occur in our police stations. Yes we should demand that the PDRM be cleaned up.

Settle this case, after that let's look at the wider social issues involved. Let's not mix the two together, shall we?

And to Anon who so vehemently objected to me calling Kugan "Mr".

It's shocking that people like you automatically assume that Kugan was the scum of the earth and deserved to die so horribly. So far, no proof has been made public of his involvement in crime. Are you then in possession of some privileged information?

Even so, is stealing cars a crime deserving of death by beating?

Has anyone who made such comments been beaten up before? Do you know how long the body has to endure before it finally ceases functioning?

Being beaten to death is indeed a horrific way to die. For the force of the blows to penetrate the outer flesh and damage the internal organs, the impact would have to be extremely hard. Even then, it is rare that a single blow has enough power or accuracy to cause instant death. So it takes repeated blows to critical parts of the body. And seeing that there were bruises all over Mr Kugan's body, we can deduce that there was may have been no focused aim to any vital organs to cause his death.

So for example, let's say it takes 5 extremely hard, accurate blows to a vital part to kill a man. How many other random blows did Mr Kugan have to endure before eventually the critical 5 blows landed? 20? 50? 100?

How long did it take? 20 minutes? 30 minutes? 45 minutes? 2 hours?

And from the pictures, he was obviously in restraints. So he was defenseless and took the full force of every blow.

You can't even endure a boring movie for 2 hours! Imagine what Mr Kugan's may have had to endure.

Does it make you glad that someone died like that? Is your anger over your insurance company not paying for your stolen car satiated?

Your bloodthirsty celebration of Mr Kugan's death smacks of a special type of bigotry that the Klu Klux Klan would have been extremely be proud of.

Anonymous,  26 January 2009 at 06:44  

i have been reading the articles by this dato and also the comments.
this is the classic case of the cattle thief who was caught. yet when people call him just that, a cattle thief dia marah2 and start quarreling with the people calling him a thief.
serupa juga dengan most of the commentators. they want to accuse the UMNO/BN as racist and the police are kuda tunggangan UMNO. yet, when people tell them they are actually looking at this issue from a racial point of view, mereka marah. you want to talk about racism, but you refuse to take th ebull by its horns.
please tell of us- what is the intention of displaying an inflamatory banner like that if its not meant to incite. plese tell us, what are you suggesting when you say, why are indians dying left and right, infering nothing less, ada a shadowy group stalking as the person say' prominent indians'. prominet indians are like ananda, tony fernandez, not people like kugan tau ke.
saya rasa artikel oleh dato ini sudah terang:-
pertama, any death is not less importnat.
kedua, dont make this into a racial issue.

Anonymous,  26 January 2009 at 09:23  

There is no mistaking THIS PICTURE! [CLICK] It's Indian alright!

Anonymous,  26 January 2009 at 09:26  

It is yet another sad story of someone dying of brutality in police custody.

I do agree with the author that race aside, the crux of the matter is that someone died while in police custody.

More disturbing is the manner in which the person died. Restrained. Beaten. Tortured. Crying out in pain. The he would have had to endure the pain while his body slowly bled internally, organs shutting down and one by one, his bodily functions fail him.

Malaysia, indeed many countries, close one eye when it comes to brutality against detainees. The mindset is that they have done a crime, therefor they have to 'pay'.

In civilised society, the retribution given for crimes committed are usually custodial sentences, fines and probations. Personally, I find judicial caning despicable, but is another form tolerated in Malaysia.

The police arrested Kugan on suspicion of car theft. Suspicion does not amount to guilt. Being in police custody for 2 weeks, tortured, one would admit to anything. Anything to stop the pain that is.

That is why torture as a method of interrogation is unreliable!

The police have no authority to punish a criminal. That is within the purview of the courts and judges. The arrogance of the Malaysian police is exceptional.

Anonymous,  26 January 2009 at 11:13  

eyes wide open.
you must be living in an idealized world. what you have expounded are ideas normally associated with those peace marchers who have not reached puberty.
as one commentator says, this kugan wasn't there as a guest at the Hilton. you are assuming that the police re evil and intentionally seek out to kill this kugan- by the way, are you suffering the Stockholm syndrome, calling a car thief Mr and feeling great empathy and maybe even unrequited love ?. kugan was a known car thief with a record. the police interrogated him to get information. you and i dont know what happen. while you spring up to the defense of Kugan, you are very quick to cast aspersion on our police. the police are not joined at the hip with UMNO la. dont be stupid.

Anonymous,  26 January 2009 at 11:15  

Eyes Wide Open!
Thank you for your preaching!!
I hope your car and your wife's car and your children's car get stolen.The car thieves are so lucky.You are so forgiving and kind.
You don't have any stress or pain should your car get stolen right?
So don't bother to lock your car!

Yes the police surely have their findings which they cannot blab around.Maybe they were trying to break the case but got carried away.
Whatever the case, if they are such a cruel lot,don't ever go to a police station if your car is stolen ok? In case somebody gets beaten during interrogation!
Heck you can save a criminal's life! Afterall, its just a car!!

msleepyhead,  26 January 2009 at 13:16  

Dato,

As this country has been run by a Malay led government for the past 51 years, with Islamic and Malay values, and UMNO constantly reminding everyone of it, it is only right to associate this with race, given that this country is operated on that basis, from birth certificates to death certificates, and everything in between.

BN is a coalition of race-based parties, and the thin veil of multi-racial harmony oft seen in tourism brochures is now at threat of being torn to shreds.

It seems like some commenters here are ok with police brutality, perhaps some sort of the end justifying the means. When people think they can get away with things and are allowed to over time, then it is only natural to expect them to feel it is another walk in the park. Have we ever seen heads roll, whether in the police force or even in schools when teachers act out of accordance, how about GLCs or their subsidiaries in the red, the most they receive is a transfer. There is no accountability on their part and certainly no more credibility left in terms of public opinion of the government.

Somewhere, somehow the camel will eventually break its back and so it happened under present circumstances when the country is faced with inner conflict.

I would assume that in the past the Indians would take their grief and complaints to MIC for such a situation but we know now that they no longer go through that channel.

Of course it is not about race and it could have been another day in the office for the police if not for Hindraf and the opposition. And of course it would be exploited to the hilt, that's the way politics are in this country.

Let's face it, there are more people interested in who gets what come March than there are about what is right or wrong. It's always the end justifying the means that will ruin this country.

mike 26 January 2009 at 13:18  

Police brutality should never be condoned. It is an injustice and the Police Force should be held accountable as it is a crime. Yet, to politicise a death in police custody as merely racism (against Indians, in this case) is to trivialise police brutality.

Indeed, all Malaysians should symphatise with family and friends of the deceased but to blame insitutional racism will not unite us all, merely divide us. And that should never be encouraged.

I believe we face institutionalised racism in our government departments (not just the Police Force) and police brutality. But today is not the time to allocate blame on either problems faced by Malaysians.

Today, we mourn the death of a fellow Malaysian.

My condolences and sympathies to the family of the deceased.

Grand Marquis,  26 January 2009 at 14:12  

All right, before we go any further, lets check this news.

Luxury car theft syndicate busted
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/1/6/nation/2947609&sec=nation

Car theft syndicate crippled, 15 cars recovered
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/16476-car-theft-syndicate-crippled-15-cars-recovered

I believe the two news refered to different case. But they are the most recent cases busted.

Which one did Kugen involve? If he is into luxury car, the first one is more susceptible. This is also judged by the statement that three other syndicate members, aged 18 to 30, were picked up in Gombak district. One is a taxi driver and the other two jobless.

Now read the modus operandi of their crime:
Initial investigations reveal that syndicate members would trail their intended victim from a bank to his or her house.

When the victim stopped the vehicle, the syndicate members would force the victim out and rob him or her before fleeing with the vehicle. They used parangs in all the incidents.

DCP Mohammad Sabtu added that eight of the victims were also raped. “However, no casualties were reported in all the incidents,” he said.


Now they are not only into car theft, but also rape. Imagine if your car is stolen and your wife is being raped.

Yes he is a suspect. But leading from the case, how many percent do you think he is guilty? Mind to note that he was not nabbed out of the blue, but after trailing investigation (or interrogation). So again how many percent do you think he is guilty?

But that's not my point. My point is that do you think the interrogation for an accused suspect and a captured suspect will be the same? If he is just a suspect, how the hell could the police uncover so many stolen cars?

As I said again and again, we do not know how stubborn he was. We do not know what happened in the interrogation room. Why the other 7 suspects do not drop dead. These are the question that we must ask before we simply pass any judgement. So it is suffice we demand for a transparent probe on the issue by an independent party. If the police is guilty, then bring the guilt to the justice.

Anonymous,  26 January 2009 at 14:52  

grand marquis,

betul you cakap. this kugan must have a track record and so qualifies to be a prominent indian like itu miss or mrs yoong cakap. kugan bukan guest di hotel hilton.
yes, imagine kalau daughter atau wife kita kena macam itu. stopped and threaten by parang and maybe sexually abused. tapi kugan sebab dia mati mahu di jadikan hero.

kaum india memang mahu jadikan ini sebagai sati usiu race. mayat belum pun di tanam, tapi sudah merata rata jaja dengan banner.
why dont you have the balls and say- polis melayu dahagakan darah kaum india. itu yang sebenarnya kamu mahu bikin, bukan.
orang2 yang buat komen disini tidak baca kenyataan hindraf atau baca komen 2 yang membelesah kaum melayu ke?

Anonymous,  26 January 2009 at 15:02  

DCP Mohammad Sabtu added that eight of the victims were also raped. “However, no casualties were reported in all the incidents,” he said.

eyes wide open- kalau u kena ini macam, apa macam? you still regard the assailant/thief/rapist still a hero? because he has not been proven a thief/rapist and assailant?
siapa pun tak tahu apa berlaku dalam bilik interogation. dont live in your dream world lah.
this kugan is a bloody thief and alleged rapist. kami bertugas hari2 siang dan malam, kamu tidor lena sahaja. apabila kami tidak dapat selesaikan perkara yang di lapur, kami kena marah. jadi eyes wide open, kalau kamu kena samun dan di rogol, jangan panggil polis ok!

zooky 26 January 2009 at 15:08  

Dato',
I wonder how much goodwill and sympathy they must have lost through that repugnant banner?
It did that for me.

Eyes Wide Open 26 January 2009 at 15:50  

Ah..anon, finally the truth dawns.

"kami bertugas hari2 siang dan malam, kamu tidor lena sahaja. apabila kami tidak dapat selesaikan perkara yang di lapur, kami kena marah."

You are a cop!

Perhaps you know what's happening in the Kugan case. Perhaps you have evidence that Kugan is guilty. Perhaps you caught him in the act of raping the person he stole the car from.

Perhaps you were even one of Kugan's interrogators.

Most definitely, you are of the opinion that Kugan deserved to die. Maybe he really was the lowest scum of the earth and deserved death for all the things he did.

But, some questions still remain...

1. If there is proof, why not charge him in court? Why the need to beat a confession out of him?

2. Is torture and physical abuse approved interrogation techniques in the PDRM?

3. Is it ok to beat the hell out of any person - while he is chained - and kill him because he was a criminal?

If Kugan was guilty, he has to pay for his crimes. Just as those who are guilty for beating him to death has to pay for theirs.

It's as simple as that.


And just to respond to a few points:

You said - "O now its Mr Kugan?? If there was police brutality inflicted on him, hes now made to look like a hero??"

I said - "it is absolutely disgusting that people would use (KUgan's famliy's) frustrations as free publicity to forward their own agendas"

Right from my first post, I spoke AGAINST people using him as some sort of idol for their cause! How come now I suddenly become one of them?!


You said - "you must be living in an idealized world. what you have expounded are ideas normally associated with those peace marchers who have not reached puberty."

I said - "The issue that needs to be resolved is - what really happened, and what needs to be seriously done about the integrity and professionalism of the police force."

Since when does discipline, lawfulness, good governance and professionalism only exist in the exclusive realm of childish dreams? Are you so jaded that you don't give a shit about such things anymore? If so, maybe you should quit the PDRM and find some less stressful work.


You said - "you are assuming that the police re evil and intentionally seek out to kill this kugan"

I said - "The issue in the Kugan case is very simply - a person died suspiciously while in police custody, the circumstances of which the police ostensibly tried to cover up. The issue that needs to be resolved is - what really happened"

Anything false in what I said? Any hint of accusations of systematic police murder of persons?


You said - "you spring up to the defense of Kugan"

Where? Please quote me.


You said - "jadi eyes wide open, kalau kamu kena samun dan di rogol, jangan panggil polis ok!"

I won't want to tell you some of the experiences I had when reporting crime to our cops. I don't want to inflame this discussion even further.

Anonymous,  27 January 2009 at 19:19  

Hmmm....interesting

I wonder if people see the Palestine/Israel conflict through racial lenses too.

So for some, Kugan is a suspect and what happened is somewhat justifiable, understandable or give the police the benefit of the doubt.

So in the same vein, if Israeli doestargeted assassination, arrest, interrogation of suspected Hamsa militants ok? Since after all they are suspected criminals and we should give the Iarael armed forces the benefit of the doubt.

These arrested, targeted suspects could be planning a suicide attack to blow up civilians or more rocket attacks on Israeli settlements after all.

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