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Sakmongkol ak 47

ariff.sabri@gmail.com

Thursday, 12 August 2010

Sakmongkol answers Walla


I could have chosen to let Walla's comments to my article remain as a footnote on my blog. But because the thoughtful Walla chose to fortify my article with his insights, I thought it would be selfish of me to leave his thoughts as mere comments. So, I decided the comments needed to be read by as many people as possible. I placed the comments as a main article. Both articles subsequently were posted on Malaysian Insider.
Why would I post an article that can be seen as demolishing my arguments in Why I remain in UMNO?
I have said why in my short preamble. Because I wanted all thinking UMNO leaders and members to be aware that this is the perception that people may have when they think of UMNO. Or a perception held so by a critical, questioning and potentially influential sections of the public. That if we choose to ignore, it will be so at our peril.
Hopefully what I and many others do within UMNO is to create awareness. First, UMNO stands for reasonableness. This was so at the beginning when UMNO was formed in 1946. It fought for Malay political, cultural and historical rootedness. Malayan Union wanted to uproot the Malays from these. UMNO was formed to oppose this.
It wasn't formed as a movement pushing for racial exclusivity or establishing a master race rule. Reasonableness has always been the inner self of the Malays collectively. UMNO as an extension of Malays with these inner values cannot operate as anything but a political party founded on the principles of moderation.
Creating and pushing for this awareness through writings, engaging people, politicians influencing their followers through the force of their personality and thoughts- all these are efforts of people who believe in UMNO. We do this so that people will know that UMNO is not just made up of layers upon layers of dumb-asses who are thinking of corrupting and despoiling the nation worse than a Caterpillar bulldozer.
It is also intended to underscore an awareness that the problem in UMNO is caused by (1) leadership problems and (2) neglect of the UMNO's fundamental principles of existence. Doesn't matter if we are a minority. A minority with strong convictions is potent. Onn Jaafar didn't start with a million people.
We are channeling signals from the UMNO mass. The central message from UMNO supporters is UMNO should be committed fully and firstly to the interest of the greater public good. That was the Tunku's idea. That was Tun Razak's motivation.
The commitment of UMNO's leadership must transcend loyalty to personalities, more to causes for the greater good. Once this is consciously reminded, the leadership elements at all levels operating in reaction to these should be rejected by right thinking members of UMNO.
I have said why I choose to remain in UMNO as honestly as possible. I shall not entertain the stupid people who suggested the reason I remain in UMNO is because I am afraid of something or I am waiting to secure my share of the loot. Indeed I feel sorry for such people for being consumed by blinding irrationality.
I am also particularly put off by one person who keeps accusing that I am motivated by my hatred of Anwar Ibrahim. If I could I would like to say FU to this person because he keeps repeating this imbecilic spew. Obviously he hasn't read my very much earlier articles about Anwar. Hatred isn't a sustainable motivation to induce you to stay in UMNO. If that is so, I should have left UMNO because at one point I hated Dato Najib for not extending my tenure as ADUN. So, please don't use such a pedestrian argument.
As for Anwar, I am more interested to shatter the myth surrounding the man. So I keep finding areas of his thinking where I can attack him. When I did, his followers keep pulling off the dirty trick of enticing me to go personal. I am not keen of ad hominem condemnations. While doing so, I have not been shy to acknowledge his abilities. So I suggest this particular person who keeps repeating the same accusation about my being motivated by hatred, to check his own mental state. Please prevent us to accuse you of being a mad person.
This is the point I want to stress. People don't stick to an organization because of hatred and other transient elements. You don't stay in UMNO because you hate Anwar. You don't stay in PKR because you hate certain people in UMNO. I hope you don't because if it's so, then your existence in PKR hasn't got any factual or reasoned foundations. Then, you are likely to be those people who can be easily bought out. The fact that PKR has suffered losses by the desertion of many of their elected members appear to prove that many choose to go into PKR without ideological convictions.
So what motivates a person for staying his course? The same applies to unshakable PKR members. I am saying, electing to stay inside a party which is said to be rotten in so many aspects can only be motivated by a belief in the fundamentals of the party's struggles. UMNO was founded by reasonable people and supported by reasonable rakyat.
Hatred for a person outside the party isn't a strong enough motivation to stay the course. As you know in politics there are no permanent friends nor enemies except permanent interests. Hatred for other races too cannot be the reason for staying in a party.
This is what I think UMNO stands for. It did not stand for xenophobic ethnic or group think. It stands for fighting for the interest of its group but only to the point of refusing to let its identity being diminished into oblivion. Had the Malayan Union been put in place, that would place the Malays into irreversible marginalization. The Malays can't be expected to voluntarily disown their political, historical and cultural rootedness to this land.
UMNO and the Malays who supported the party were fighting to keep ownership of its cultural, historical and political dominance. It was fighting to secure these. Once assured, UMNO and the Malays did not seek out to dominate other people nor do they work to obliterate others' rootedness. That cannot be UMNO's mission because that would be contradicting its own reason for formation.
UMNO fought on these principles because they are not people who are transplanted into a new geographical entity where complete fusion is possible. America was able to turn into a melting pot precisely because it became home to people transplanted from their original homeland who could accept fusion into a new 'American race'. Singapore was home for people transplanted where the only option was fusion. Malaya wasn't a new adopted home for Malays.
When Walla sent in his comments, I thought it they were very good and said so. I transferred the comments which would otherwise be some footnotes on my article into a main article. The purpose is to open honest intellectual debate using civil language. Unfortunately judging from the comments, most of us have not leant how to differ as gentlemen. Both my articles were also reproduced in the widely read Malaysian Insider. Both of them drew lively debates and counterpoints. Again I am disappointed at the savagery of the arguments.
The arguments appear to forget that by and large, the UMNO members and the Malays who supported them since 1946 and the successive generations that continued so, have never lost the one thing that makes a Malay commendable- their good nature and a sense of fairness. This is the fundamental value that UMNO was built on and must renew because it's never lost. This was the sense of fairness and good nature that allowed Onn Jaafar and a number of other nationalists to form UMNO and went on to press for independence for all Malaysian races. It started as a pure nationalist group because its identity was threatened but that pure nationalism never descended into a master race philosophy. The absence of such narrow minded group-think allowed UMNO to press for independence for all Malayan races at that time. The realization of this observation may have prompted Walla to declare that:-
And the rakyat who are Malays have found again their good nature and sense of fairness.
If the Malays have these as Walla pointed out, how come they are said to rediscover them only by being outside UMNO? If these values are inherent in them, being in UMNO will not lead them losing the inner values. If more Malays brought these inner values to bear on the UMNO leadership, demanding those best able to represent these values lead UMNO, then UMNO is still relevant.
Next.
How do we answer the things pointed out by Walla? Economic injustices and unfair distribution of wealth? I am not going into income disparities between nations. I know that the GINI coefficient within Malays is the biggest among the races in Malaysia pointing out to unfair distribution of wealth among Malays.
The despicable things about UMNO associated with the names like Khir Toyo, Rahim Tamby Chik and the various other individuals are real. But it would be unfair to conclude that these shape the UMNO personality.
That is the reason why many chose to remain in UMNO providing unbridled criticisms and objections to ensure these kind of people never get to lead UMNO again.
I find the criticisms that Walla advances, not to contradict what many in UMNO believe in- that these criticisms should provide ample cause for the leadership to act decisively. If it doesn't, then the people out there will exercise their final judgment on UMNO. They are a stark reminder that the UMNO leadership beginning with the UMNO President can't operate on personal whims and fancies any longer.
So what do people see when the speak of UMNO?
They think of the leadership material that has brought about peace and prosperity to this nation of ours. They think of leadership material that pushed for civil society based on mutual respect between races. Malays think of comforting thoughts that their cultural, political and historical rootedness are not disputed. Other races think of an UMNO leadership that values their contributions.
People think of a need for a strong and upright leadership in UMNO that does not tolerate what people like Khir Toyo, Rahim tamby Chik or even non UMNO person like Taib Mahmud represent. People demand a leadership that puts an end to all these.
When people talk about UMNO, they think of a renewed leadership and even a new leadership if the current leadership is weak-kneed or spineless to actualize what the rakyat wants.
Walla is the last person I hope, to claim that these thoughts are exclusively owned by those opposing UMNO only.

21 comments:

Anonymous,  12 August 2010 at 10:23  

Dato,

One word – Lamarckism. It spells the inheritance of acquired traits.

It has something to do with why giraffe has long neck. Similarly why umno currently behave as it is. It’s an acquired behaviour that feeds on the money & power that it generated. It's now almost inbred into the gene!

Granted what u have said about the behaviors of the Malays of the past. But the big question is - r those traits still exist among the power players of current umno (baru)? Iff it does then can these people do anything about it within umno to bring back these dying naturals?

U r a typical example. T Razaleigh is another. Without the support of a powerful base, what CAN both of u do to rehabilitate umno of the old?

& the power base of current umno is built on money, contracts via cronyism, which both of u have NO access!

So, yr clarion call remains a whisper in the wind. Soothing to the ear & mind of few BUT reject big time of the many.

Anonymous,  12 August 2010 at 10:27  

Dato Sak,

I enjoy reading your blog simply because I find yours an open and democratic blog. Thanks for allowing your readers to comment freely in your blog even though some of the comments crossed the limits of human decency but hey, you have allowed democracy and freedom of expression in your blog.

As you have rightfully pointed out, UMNO's original manifesto by the founding fathers was honorable and as a non Malay, I believe the majority of Malaysians accepted the original UMNO ideology of the founding fathers. However the UMNO of today, or more precise, the UMNO Baru of today has lost it's direction and has hijacked the founding fathers ideologies to satisfy it's own agenda which is laced with greed and abuse of power.

Your writings over the last week revealed exactly what the Malaysian masses think of UMNO Baru today. Two words come into mind whenever we think of UMNO Baru today: CORRUPT and RACIST. It is extremely difficult for the masses not to think otherwise considering what has been happening to the country over the last 20+ years.

I wish you well in your efforts to change and revive UMNO back to it's former glorious days where it stands for REASONABLENESS, MODERATION and for the INTEREST OF THE GREATER PUBLIC (reproduced from your writing).

Thank you and Selamat Berpuasa.

sakmongkol AK47 12 August 2010 at 10:31  

dear anon 10:23.

because its not genetically programmed, UMNO still has hopes. these bad habits are acquired traits not inherited.
since you mentioned UMNO of old, i am happy to say many whom i met are yearning to get back to UMNO's first principles. maybe we should all call back Tengku Razaleigh.

HAKIMAN,  12 August 2010 at 11:33  

"So what do people see when they speak of UMNO? They think of the leadership material that has brought about peace and prosperity to this nation of ours. " -Dato Sak

Dato Sak,

I thought you should have rephrased your question above (which was borrowed from WALLA), as follows:

So what do people see when they WANT to speak of UMNO?

It is for the future tense...

The present is as described by WALLA beautifully.

HAKIMAN,  12 August 2010 at 11:36  

"I am happy to say many whom i met are yearning to get back to UMNO's first principles. maybe we should all call back Tengku Razaleigh."- Dato Sak

For that, you will be sure to get the majority of support of the non-Malays to come back to vote for UMNO and BN.

Mahathir destroyed the very foundation built by the OLD UMNO and replaced with a corrupt and racist one.

The respect for the President of UMNO as PM of Malaysia among Malays and non Malays went downhillm from the time Mahathir became PM and his successors right up today.

Anonymous,  12 August 2010 at 12:06  

Dato Sak 10:31

Quote " i am happy to say many whom i met are yearning to get back to UMNO's first principles. maybe we should all call back Tengku Razaleigh. "

Unquote.

Well Dato Sak, glad you are the very least have the ♥ heart to do this, I wish you well and goodluck on this journey.

I like many others out there - are cynical and wish UMNO would change.

But its all too late now - come next GE the odds are changing all over again.

Maybe, Just Maybe you mention Tg.Razeleigh earlier both of you set another party?

Brahi Ali can do it while enjoying his Kopi Pribumi Perkasa
(Original Malay Coffee) why not you?

No Flip Flop I hope - or it is definitely a no brainer when it comes to Ideas but to Implement it sangat susah dan dugaan bukan? Typical Malaysian mah. We all love to be that ArmChair Critic no?

Pergi Lawat Pahang - banyak keluarga kat sana masih berbuka makan nasi & ikan bilis je

Bekalan Air & Api pon nak politik ke?

-Ikan Tongkol-

Peter,  12 August 2010 at 12:23  

We respect your decision and we do agree with many pointers and reasons you put forward for a person who still harbour "hope" for a badly diseased body.

You are like a few good cells inside a cancerous body trying to remove or cure the massive cancers in the body that has metastasize a normal oncologist would have pronounced as "terminal" trying in its last days with desperate efforts.

In fact the likes of "Ibrahmi Alis" put "paid" to whatever chances there was/is/will there be.

I sum all these up as "these guys are just amateur politicians" who does not have any inklings on mass psychology other than using the old tried out "racist" agenda to claim back their former glory of subservient politics.

Can you imagine an entire MCA has less power than a low down Kampong UMNO division head. How stupid can one get. This kind of coalition will not last the moment the other races know about it.

The age of Internet and globalisation and where the rights of all are now claimed by all sides , this kind of coalition just cannot survive.

MCA , MIC etc will not survive. They are only for those who seeks money.

Without the component parties, UMNO just cannot survive no matter how hard they try to garnet Malay support. Not all Malays are extremist or racists in their thinking. Not all are blind too.

The few Ibrahim Alis .. the more they shout the more diehard BN supporters (especially the old aunties and uncles) will desert them.

How on earth can it become a situation where the once taboo party PAS can now be accepted by non Muslims still boggles me.

How brained washed Muslims voted DAP when Malays have been since the days of TDM demonised DAP as anti Malay when they are actually for all Malaysians.

Give and take. Each has its own agenda it is true. It is better to be realistic. It is better to rule the country and in power and try to improve your own agenda than to rule ONLY Kelantan and DAP only Penang. Both would not achieve anything.

Walla has highlighted what we have all along been aware of. The money and opportunities lost are just mind boogling and truly because of this, this generation will not see a developed Malaysia. Mark my words here... never. Because the exodus continues.

Right now there is nothing to indicate that we can improve our earning powers to be one. What are the measures? Just shouting we shall achieve to be developed will do it while multibillions are spent on non productive projects with lots of leakages like US30 million becoming US300 million projects? You think our black gold is going to turn to real yellow gold and forever?

Fat hopes.

Nona manis,  12 August 2010 at 12:28  

Dato Sak,

You've said it well! I concur with most of your observation about UMNO. However, I thought the analysis still lacks several `variables' which due to reasons that you know are omitted in your analysis.

UMNO does not exist in vacuum. We need to see UMNO in a more holistic way. In your analysis you did not address the external factors that may have contributed to the `changing behavior of UMNO', specifically the pressure from PAS and DAP, as well as other BN component parties esp. Gerakan, MCA and MIC. Can UMNO remain magnanimous while DAP is pressuring from `outside' for the chinese cause with the `help' of UMNO `friends' like Gerakan and MCA. Gerakan and MCA get the share for the chinese towkays (chinese interest) by disgusing themselves as UMNO's partner, and support DAP's chinese agenda.

Quiet Despair,  12 August 2010 at 12:40  

Hi Sak

It should be Ku Li and not Mr Aljay or Musang Hitam who was Tun M's Deputy.
Then Ku Li will be in placed to be our PM.
He will get the taste of PM. But it was never meant to be. Somehow Tun M did not want him.
A real mistake not choosing Ku Li when it is Aljay who should never be in UMNO.
Now Ku Li's past his prime and time.
It will be same old, same old.
Do you mean Najib should not be our PM now by opting Ku Li as alternative?

I was out of town yesterday to comment on Walla's long rebuttal.
I somehow agree with a commentator who thinks Walla is you. I too have a hunch it's true.
Your alter-ego. Your side-kick.
The same language and style of writing which I observed being rather long a loyal reader of your blog.
You want to present a fair two-sided view for the rabid Anwar followers who were angry you chose to remain steadfast in UMNO.
Please correct me if I am wrong to think that you are Walla.
Cheers.

Anonymous,  12 August 2010 at 12:54  

Why should I stay on in UMNO if I don't get contracts or recommendation letters?

I have to take care of guys in my Cawangan.Who will be funding their gatherings,kopi sessions & visits to KL for their children's convo?

There's no free ride Sir.
And as long as there is money,,I will follow my nose lah

nick 12 August 2010 at 13:18  

Sir,

There you go again, referring to the current UMNO (B) as the exact duplicate of the "now dead and buried" UMNO of Dato' ONN, of Tunku, Of Tun Razak and Of Tun Hussein. Those traits, qualities, principle and "esprit de corp' that was evident and abundant in the "RIP" UMNO does not exist in the new UMNO.

How can it? Look at what happen to UMNO (B) after just 2 decades! It became a monster in the control of an even "questionable human.err..man". The past UMNO didn't degenerate into monstrosity and cancer like growth but the new UMNO did. It was not the old UMNO that went against the Malay royalty! It was not the old UMNO that breed the class of elite UMNO leeches! It was not the old UMNO that destroyed the judiciary and the civil service with partisan loyalty (instead of King and country)! And here you are still harping about the values of UMNO that is good! The OLD UMNO's VALUES not the ones existing in the current UMNO, that is!

If by any chance you are going to rebuke me by saying that the new UMNO is every bit the same as the old UMNO then why did UMNO (B) members (who by your account, have the same values of the OLD UMNO) allowed the royalty to be spit upon and humiliated (by UMNO malay no less)? How can those UMNO malays be so greedy and unfair in forcing the judiciary and the civil service to be partisan (aren't Malay moderate people, never extreme in everything like what you are harping?) Aren't malay people hate malays that took advantage of other people for power and wealth? Aren't malay people kind hearted and accommodating to their neighbors even though they are not malays? Aren't malay people despises people who discriminate other malays just because they have different political aspiration? Aren't malay livid when they see injustice and oppression being exerted on other malays and other races? Aren't the malay all that? Well? What happen to the malays in UMNO then? What changed them? What silenced their tongue seeing injustice, oppression, discrimination and outright robbery happening in this country? Why didn't they move a muscle? Rigor Mortis maybe since the real UMNO is already dead? OR...WHAT?

Three (3) decades of destruction wrecked upon this nation and none of UMNO members rose up to fight for truth and justice during that time? But now seeing the possibility of losing power and losing their grip on wealth, they suddenly felt the urge to rise up for truth and justice and FAIRNESS? Talk about HYPOCRITICAL ACTION and ASPIRATION (which TDM accuses the opposition of doing)! In short Sir, you are mistaken in your believe that you are a member of the OLD UMNO! NOPE! Sorry to say that you are a full pledge member of the new and cancerous UMNO (and was one of those high ranking members too). My sympathy to you and to your faith!

Nick.

Quiet Despair,  12 August 2010 at 13:32  

We join a political party because of its ideals. philosophies and struggles.
And UMNO is the torch-bearer of fairness and good-naturedness not only to all Malays but to everyone.
Like it or not, UMNO is the gentleman in our political axis.
The party has always uphold fundemntal values of Malaysians that it was built on and will continue it to the good of all.
We own the party and not the party owned us.
We do not join the party because of personalities. No member quit because Tun Razak is dead, for ecample.
No member quit because Najib is PM though they may not like him.
It is so unlike PKR members who are in it for Anwar.
If Anwar goes to jail, so you guys will disband the party?
Or don't tell me you will leap-frog enmasse to UMNO.
We must always regard leaders as indispensable but the party is not.
UMNO has a sound hierarchy where if one goes, there are many abled ones to take the baton.
Granted UMNO has some despicable characters as in many huge party.
But its greatness is there are still good ones.
Some bad apples won't spoil the whole bunch.
And for me I am like the commentator who said Anwar is his choice even if he bonked a pig.
If UMNO is the pig's swill, I don't mind wallowing in the same mud.
We don't see people leaving the party because of quarrels or hating Najib.
Look at Sak as one example. Of course he's disappointed being dropped as ADUN.
But he soldiered on because he knows the party is the entity not the personality.
UMNO is the best bet for Malays to pin their hopes on, warts and all.
We know where it comes from and where it is going.

sakmongkol AK47 12 August 2010 at 14:05  

quiet despair,

unfortunately you r wrong. i say unfortunate because i would like to half of walla's brain.

Habib RAK 12 August 2010 at 14:07  

Sak, I second Nick's comment at 13:18min.

Perhaps, the following will be of help. I quote from ur posting

Quote:
Walla to declare that:-
And the rakyat who are Malays have found again their good nature and sense of fairness.

And you (Sak) said this:-
If the Malays have these as Walla pointed out, how come they are said to rediscover them only by being outside UMNO?

To answer this question,Nick and few others have explained to you. UMNO Lama and UMNO Baru are 2 different entities with different set of values. UMNO Lama dah meninggal Sak. Al-Fatihah. UMNO Baru is not UMNO Lama. UMNO Baru is only meant for indecent malays. If you are looking for where decent malays have moved on to, look for them in PAS, PKR and DAP.

A decent person can only remain decent when you are in the company of decent people. If you continuously remain among indecent people, you too will eventually be corrupted. Like most, I too see you as a very decent person (though you did not reply my question when I asked you if you consider yourself as decent)based on your writing and tolerence to dissenting views. Please do not waste your talent by remaining in UMNO Baru. Hijrah dan Selamat Berpuasa.

Anonymous,  12 August 2010 at 14:10  

The issue of institutional change. When do want keep fighting for change within OR give up, form a new group and destroy the corrupted institution.

The truth is changing any institution is really really hard. The bigger the institution is, the more entrenched, the harder it is to change. Political parties, by nature, are especially harder to change than other institutions.

So, in practical terms, it actually make many times more sensible to leave UMNO and just destroy it if you care for what it used to stand for.

However, there is no accounting for sentimentality..

Anonymous,  12 August 2010 at 14:33  

Salam Datuk SAK,

Sebagai marhaen yang tidak berparti, saya berasakan di mana saja seseorang itu berada, baik di pihak BN atau PR, yang akan dibanggakan adalah apa yang dapat disumbangkan kepada parti dan negara tetapi bukannya sumbangan berkaitan kemampuan memburuk-burukkan atau menumbangkan pihak lawan yang harus dimegah-megahkan.

Kalau tujuannya seseorang memasuki sesebuah parti adalah untuk mentohmah, menghasut dan menghina pihak lawan atau lebih teruk, mahu menjatuhkan pihak lawan tanpa mengira berapa harga yang perlu ditanggung, makanya apabila sasaran berkenaan tercapai, pemenang pasti akan menuntut habuan! Apa yang berlaku di Selangor (isu pasir dan kepala surat) adalah gambaran tepat apa yang dimaksudkan.

Selebihnya marhaen nampak antara BN dan PR, peribahasa ini iaitu 'ketuk dulang paku serpih, kata orang (BN), dia (PR) yang lebih' adalah terpakai bagi menggambarkan sikap kedua-dua pihak. Setiap pihak mengaku lebih baik dari yang satu lagi tetapi marhaen yang menjadi penilai utama seolah-olah dibuat-buat tidak dipedulikan penialain mereka.

Justeru, siapa saja yang memegang kuasa, marhaen tetap mendapat layanan yang sama iaitu hak mereka di'kendurikan' secara bergilir-gilir, dulu PR kata BN tetapi sekarang musim PR berkenduri-kendara di Penang dan di Selangor. Sementara buat marhaen mereka disuruh bersyukur kerana telah mendapat bantuan ihsan bernilai USD 25 setahun - satu nilai token gitu - itu sumbangan 'Khalifah Omar' di Penang.

Marhaen Malaysia.

Anonymous,  12 August 2010 at 14:34  

Dato,

I have no quarrels with you whether you choose to remain in UMNO or not. It is not the party you are in but the ideals that you fight for that is important. However, to fight for your ideals, you need support from many of similar mind. Yes, Onn Jaafar did not start alone but he was willing to sacrifice everything to lead and fight for his ideals. See anyone in the current UMNO doing it ? Who will lead the fight to reclaim the ‘old’ UMNO ? Ibrahim Ali boldly step forward to fight for what he believes is his rights. We don’t see anyone having your ideals stepping forward in UMNO. Who is going to make the clarion call ?

Yes, every party has their black sheep. But it does not help when these black sheep are also leaders in the party who run for office. There is also the problem of notoriety by association as in Sarawak’s case. When you not only stand and watch but condone the actions of wrongdoing, how should the people judge you ? (when you tolerate, you give tacit approval)

The other big problem is how do you revamp the other BN component parties. The same problems you have in UMNO, you can also see in MCA & MIC. The Chinese are ashamed of MCA and would deny any association with them. Same goes for MIC for the Indians. So the million dollar question is, does UMNO require the cooperation of the Chinese & Indians to govern Malaysia ? If you do, not only do you have to clean your own house, you need to clean up your neighbours houses as well.

My dear Dato, I don’t envy you one bit and unfortunately, we the non-Malays can only offer moral support. But I for one, am sure that the leader of UMNO who share your ideals would bring Malaysia to the next level.

X

Quiet Despair,  12 August 2010 at 16:08  

OK Sak. Thank you. I accept that.
But you are as brainy as the Walla.
But Walla is voluminous. Must be a professor of politics.
Sometimes full of cicumlocutions.
Unlike what I was thought in school.

Nick

You are not an UMNO member. So you go nit-picking like bringing on UMNO baru and UMNO lama.
It's one and the same. Same people, same leaders, same principles.

Anonymous,  12 August 2010 at 19:08  

Habib Rak mentioned,

"A decent person can only remain decent when you are in the company of decent people."

If that is your argument then in the context of moslem, based on the same argument, the understanding is a moslem will remain a moslem if they are in the company of other moslem?

ZAL

nick 12 August 2010 at 20:19  

Quiet Despair,

What??? No counter argument, no rebuttal, no facts to offer? Just a single line "it's the same people, its the same leaders and it's the same principle" for me to take it as the truth and the absolute fact?

Oh yes! How stupid of me to think otherwise! How stupid of me to realized that the old UMNO was created to defeat Malayan Union which was trying to usurp the power and sovereignty of the Malay sultanate and the new UMNO manage to do just that fifty years later! How ignorant of me for not seeing that The old UMNO and the new UMNO is so similar and in fact both can be categorized as identical twin (but conceived and borne by different father and a different mother too. Might I add in a different year as well? 40 odd years difference in fact?)

But who cares about facts and figures and history? Not UMNO leaders and surely not UMNO members! Who cares about malaysia and the Malaysian people! Not UMNO leaders and definitely not UMNO members! To all of you all non UMNO malaysian be it malay, chinese, indian and other are second class citizen and second class citizen need to be kept in ignorance and destitution. And that is the truth how non UMNO malaysian are made to feel by UMNO and it's members.


Nick.
P.s -Jangan marah sangat QD nanti batal puasa!

Anonymous,  13 August 2010 at 10:16  

Nick,

It's one and the same. Same people, same leaders, same principles.

That is why no problem, semuanya okay. So what is there to solve. Go on with the merry making.

It reflects the ideology and mentality of the writer who subscribe to such a stance. You still want to debate with him ?

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