Like I said before, the issue hasn't died down. There is even a new twist to describe those who oppose the ruling of the court of first instance. These people are now called the mob. Anything associated with the mob, should be discounted. As in mob rule. As in mob referring to the gangster. The term mob, in general is always associated with bad things.
Malaysians don't like bad things.
NH Chan, the former judge has employed a subtle and clever use of Syllogism. Let me try to illustrate this method of argument and see whether it makes sense.
All Muslims believe in Allah
All Christians believe in Allah who has a son named Jesus
Therefore All Muslims believe in Jesus as son of Allah.
Now, even using this kind of syllogism, we can already see that the meaning of Allah as used by Christians is not the same as when Muslims used Allah.
The law professor, Azmi is right; we cannot use legal precepts in debating the Allah issue. We must go back to the Holy Scriptures. For us Muslims we go back to the Quran. But we don't read the Quran as we do a story book.
Let us go a little farther. When we, confident people, who are not at all affected when other people of differing faiths use Allah, pass on, the next generation has fused within the religious melting pot. Why not we call the Sunday church affair as solat hajat hari Ahad? Or now call the church no longer gereja but masjid ? the great Cathedral in Rome shall be called Rumah Allah or even Kaabah?From next year, all Hajj pilgrimage will be diverted to Rome, where there is also another Kaabah?
One religion should not tell another what to do. If the muslims are offended that Jesus is called son of allah and the Christians are offended by the muslim calling Jesus Prophet Jesus what is the solution.
ReplyDeleteSaying that the muslims have the right to tell the Christians what to do for what ever reason no matter what it is, is oppression plain and simple.
What about the Sikhs? Ban their religion?
Why cant the Malays live and let live
To Anon, in Islam there is Nabi Isa not Jesus. Allah is pronounce differently by Muslims. The spelling is governed by 'tajwid'. It is not simple as you think.
ReplyDeleteAnotner Anon.
Dato, my, my, your brush is awfully broad when you tar the whole Christian church with using the name.
ReplyDeleteTo equate all Christians in one fell swoop is like saying Shi'a and Sunni are the same, no?
If one wants to take offense, one can think of many incorrect (& in some circles, blasphemous) teachings that some imams propagate to their faithful about what Christians believe. But you don't see people throwing petrol bombs, do you?
If the idea was to propagate Islam to non-Malays, this brouhaha indicates the various state JAI's lost the plot. Harks back to the middle ages Christianity where people were burnt at the stakes. The ends do not justify the means.
Perhaps, Islam is different? Kindly enlighten me.
English translation from From Surah 3 (found online)
ReplyDelete52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah.s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
53. "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger. then write us down among those who bear witness."
54. And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
55. Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
What if Botswana, Namibia and South Africa, all Christian majority countries, ban their muslim minority from refering to Isa as Jesus and calling him a prophet?
richard,
ReplyDeletefunny, when the brush sweeps on the other side, not even a murmur, yes?
To all people here,
ReplyDeleteWe’re talking about Malaysia. Its already written in the constitution that the non muslim cannot use the word ALLAH. Fair or not its there and for a reason…and that reason is very obvious now. If the law says muslim cannot use the word JESUS, then we have no problem with that. Still don’t want to abide by the constitution, then change it, but you have to rule this country first with 2/3 majority..this is what you aiming for right? on the next PRU. In the meantime we all have to abide by the law of the land.
Ada faham ka?
@Are you gonna go my way
ReplyDeleteIts already written in the constitution that the non muslim cannot use the word ALLAH in the context of proselytising to Muslims - please see the aricle by Azmi Sharom in The Star today.
"the great Cathedral in Rome shall be called Rumah Allah or even Kaabah".
ReplyDeleteBro, I wonder if you know the Kaabah was in existence long before the time of Prophet Mohammed?
In fact Islamic tradition itself says that it was REBUILT by Abraham and his son Ishmael, which was al least about 1,000 years before the Prophet's birth in AD 570!
dpp
We are all of 1 race, the Human Race
We must be the most immature nation on earth...
ReplyDeleteNo we are not part of earth.. we living in our own planet under the tree.
Anon at 20.18
ReplyDeleteThank you for the link but no thank you. You see , people like that pony tail Azmi Sharom, Farish Noor or Haris Ibrahim( Haris was proud to tell the world that his “Mum was born Christian, lived a Christian and died a Christian” when his mother died), are not what you can call real representative of real Muslim people. People like that do not worry about their akidah tauheed or iman because they have none. If you’re a Christian, I don’t expect you to understand this.
Why we couldn’t care less what to those people say?
I give you an example, while we respect people that championing the right for fundamental liberties but if those liberties also include gay’s right, I would assume that those people have a twisted, flawed understanding of human existence not the way that god intended us to be. Those people may have 99% correctness in their understanding and struggle for fundamental liberties but because of that 1% gay’s right thing, it rendered the rest of their struggle and effort useless.
are you gonna go my way...
ReplyDelete99% good 1% flawed means useless to you...how shallow your thinking....i suppose thinking outside the box goes down the gutter to you....learned people with different opinion and thinking from you are useless...
what is religion....to you.... most constitution will say is a belief....if you say a tree is a god it will serve its porpose... do you believe.... we have brains to think and technology to experiment... so we know now that a tree is just a tree....cant possibally be god.... though long time ago anything that shook the earth was deemed as gods....gays are people....made by god...you agree....god made every thing.....will you not say that god has flawed by making gays, lesbians homosexuals.... flaws by your god by your own admission...that all in this world is gods creations.... why cant we not live with it....except them...with their flaws created by "god" of all men....
A: 'I want to cry because brothers are pitted against brothers to vie for the attention of the same Father.'
ReplyDeleteB: 'Sigh. How did we come to this? But first i must help to qualify what you said. Only some, not all.'
A: 'That may be true. Nonetheless, walla has observed it all started because those who wanted primacy came in late and after the other faith had already used the Word.'
B: 'And when we think of that carefully, if the followers of the other faith had all along not been using bahasa, the problem wouldn't have arisen and we wouldn't have this strange situation, Sofea.
Which minister do you think we should tar today for messing up the education system that has now spilled into religion?'
A: 'Teehee. You can be so garang, Tun.'
B: ....
A: 'Why suddenly quiet, Tun?'
B: 'I was thinking of old sakmongkol; he's fighting for something deep inside him. Even when we know those lawyers' letter has holes in its arguments.
As i was thinking of him and him alone, something stirred in my mind. I looked up to the sky. I looked within to myself. I looked around at all. And i mean all.
I try to sense something beyond the streams of words, thoughts, barrages, defenses and counterpoints. And i try to pick out the essence of the situation.'
A: '(eyes gleam) And, Tun? And?'
B: 'I hope someone will come out and say where i am wrong in what i am going to say now...'
A: 'Pleazze, Tun. And that is?'
B: 'I float above everything. The constitution, the principles, the need to look at what has happened in the past and what is practised elsewhere, the root nodes, the feelings, the statistical representations of present views, the reactions, the beliefs and the potential judgments, the clauses.... so many imponderables.'
A: 'Yes, it is complicated.'
B: 'But it is also just His Test. So the question is test who? The answer i suspect is test all.'
A: 'What do you think is the score, Tun?'
B: 'There are no marks for this one, Sofea.
Ok, i am ready. I am going to use my heart and not my mind.
And my heart is saying this:
"Who has no choice?"
A: 'Ehh?'
B: 'The muslims have no choice on how to call Him, Sofea. It is the only Name they have for Him.'
A: 'But, Tun, the other faith followers also have no choice, don't they?'
B: 'If they had not been schooled in bahasa, they would have a choice. It could be some other Word.
On the other hand, if the malays of this country had also not been schooled in bahasa, they would still have no choice. He would still be called by that Name. Because it's the only Name in Islam.
I hope someone can clarify otherwise, because i am just using my heart.'
A: 'Hmmm, Tun, i think you also use syllogism of some sort but my eager mind can't fathom it.
ReplyDeleteSo, you think it's not about constitutional principles or the fact that it is also used in other muslim societies that it should be foregone?'
A: 'I know it will be extremely difficult, perhaps impossible. The muslims should ask themselves how would it be if one day they are asked to do something that they would not want others to do to them. What they don't want visited on themselves, they should not want it visited on others. In fact, it's the first law of all religions. Right, or wrong?'
B: 'You got it, Sofea. That's why the bombing the churches was so wrong. A church, inasmuch a mosque or a temple, i would see as just rooms in the same House. You burn down one room, the whole House catches fire. Wouldn't it have grieved Him to see believers forgetting it is not about religious fervor which delight Him but the real lessons to be learned about faith in Him, love for others, compassion beyond self, wisdom beyond sight?'
A: 'Ummmmm. That's so beautifully said, Tun.'
B: 'Sometimes i surprise even myself, my dear Sofea. But only sometimes.'
A: 'Let me understand what you are saying now.
You are saying the muslims have no choice at all in the Word they must use.
But does that mean the other faith's believers must relinquish their constitutional right to use the same Word?'
B: 'It's whether the Word spelt the same needs to be perceived as conveying the same Entity.
The complication here, Sofea, especially for us feeble mortal minds, is that if we see two identicals, we think it is one and then we are worried which one. But if it is one, how can it be two?
Now that was just me switching back to using my mind. But i don't want to use my mind today. I just want to use my heart this morning. And my heart says the muslims of our flippingly screwed-up country have no choice over the Word. To them, it's the only Word they have. They cannot for instance add a 'Y'.....' in front or what. It's exactly like that, no?'
A: 'But can the Word be copyrighted, Tun?'
B: 'No it can't by laws which operate not just in our society, Sofea. But this country we know is known for close-one-eye, no?'
A: 'You're asking for a sacrifice, Tun. If one relents on legal principles, where does it stop? Next you will have something else and then something else. Just as one set of defenders can think along this line, the other set too can also think along the same line.'
B: 'But what is the real essence of Him, Sofea? What would He have decided for Himself, Sofea?
I have said more than i should. But that's because i am using my heart.'
Dato, may I have your leave,please!
ReplyDelete@are you gonna go my way at 0945
In one Hadith, it was reported that when one Muslim calls another Muslim a Kafir, one of them surely is!
Shouldn't you then be very afraid in your saying a pony tail man and one whose mother had died a Christian are less of Muslims than you?
The suicide bomber whose cause for Jihad was to kill among his targetted enemies innocent people including Muslims, who to him anyway had shared probably 99% correctness of his Islam, was just only ending their useless lives.
Aren't you regarding other people lacking in degree of Islamic-ness in similar contemptuousness?
are you gonna go my way...
ReplyDeleteEver wondered if the "god" we put our faith in is an inclusive or an exclusive one? And I don't mean exclusive as in the palatial homes in the Palace of Golden Horses area. More like the Berlin Wall.
Perhaps you should also ask yourself 'Ada faham ka?' as well?
please go to kerala, india and learn how the 3 main religions live together. Do the catholics there use Allah or Ganesan in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteanother anon 2
Permisi Dato..
ReplyDeleteRed Alfa and Richard Cranium,
Yes you both are right, precisely what im trying to say.
And where in my post did I say those 3 are kafir? If they can’t find Allah deep within them, I guess they’ll know where they stand.
As much as I hate those bombing innocent people in the name of jihad and the name of Allah, I also hate people using the name of Allah for showing off their liberal stand on everything just to suit their political and social belief.
Yes, Saya faham. Tq.
Interesting to note that all of the people caught for torching a surau are Malays.
ReplyDelete